Schools Don’t Fail—Students Do. The Back to School Episode

Students: Take Control of Your Future

0:08 You're on sabbatical with Doc G and The Discussance, where difficult questions are posed. For reassurance, we suggest you call your mother. Now here's Doc G. Welcome to the Wednesday episode, Doc G. and the Discussance, the Professor and Sarah alongside for our Wednesday discussion. And as always, we appreciate you. Thank you for stopping by and spending your time with us. We know that you have a lot of choices when it comes to entertainment, and we hope that you will be with us for every single episode.

1:22 And Tom, you know, unlike when we were on the radio. You can go back and listen to all these episodes. Praise Allah. Maybe not what I was looking for in terms of commentary, but we'll go with that. I was listening to some the other day just to, you know, see what they sound like. And one would just go right into the other. And I thought, what a wonderful thing. You could like spend the whole day with Doc G in the discussions. And why would you want to do it any other way? I can't imagine why anybody would want to do anything any other way.

2:01 I can't either. So the gist of today's program, the whole program, not the gist of it, it's back to school time, folks. And it really is. It is back to school time. I used to hate those commercials as a young man. I would see those. Did you hate them? Oh. It was so depressing. Really depressing. I'm glad to see that I am not the only one who hated those commercials. I didn't grow up with television, so I never had them. Let's explain that a little bit. If you haven't been to the website, if you haven't read Sarah's bio, Sarah was the daughter of a Baptist minister.

2:40 Southern Baptist. Southern Baptist minister. There's a difference. No TV in the house. And this is part of the reason why I've so corrupted her with trash TV now. Oh, because I think she's got some catching up to do. I think you've corrupted her with more than just trash TV. Well, unfortunately... I guess like a little sailor and... Yeah, you do. You've got a rotten ear mouth. He's told me I can't say stuff like that. I can't talk. It's like me trying to talk without my hands. If I sit on my hands, I can't talk.

3:20 So anyway, it was TV we were talking about. So it's back to school time. I used to hate those commercials. It depressed me no end. And what we wanted to do with today's show is basically examine education a little bit, but also give some very unique advice. I served as a superintendent of schools, a principal. an athletic director, a chairman of a mathematics department, a mathematics teacher, a professor of higher education. Oh my god, I think you have credentials up to wazoo. Yeah, I've been there.

3:55 I've been on basically every level of it. I've been to school. I've been to school. Yeah, and you were a very good student. What I wanted to do is, if it's back to school time, which it is, Forget another program slogan or school improvement plan. Those are not for you students. That's all noise. What should students, parents, and teachers actually be doing this year? The answers are very simple and they cost next to nothing. And this was sort of a problem in the political world because they like to spend money and go home and say we spent some money on this program and that of course meant that they'd done something.

4:39 And of course, nothing ever changed. So we require people to do difficult things consistently in education, and it's not always fun. So we've spent decades trying to make school successful. When schools don't learn, here it comes, a damn thing. Oh my. Yeah, schools don't learn anything. Dr. C. I know. It's students that do the learning. And when I had a new class of students at the beginning of the year, and I'm basically talking to students now, or parents of students, you can tell them, this is the 10 rules that I had for becoming an A student.

5:21 But they're really Doc G's 10 rules for success in anything. And the first one is never miss a day. If you don't miss a day, you're about 95 % there in about anything you try. The second one is very close. Be early for everything. So if you never miss a day and you're early, you're there. And you're ready. And that's number three. Be organized and ready for every class. Four, come to class with questions and then ask them. There was nothing that perturbed me more than a student who I knew had questions who wouldn't ask.

6:03 That was the purpose of me being there. Please ask questions when you don't understand or if you do understand you want more clarification. That's the function of the teacher. Five, listen carefully, take notes and ask the instant you don't understand a concept. Again, why the teacher's there, or should be there, we'll talk about that in a minute. Do your homework as soon as possible after class, that's number six, so it's always done. Do every single assignment as well as possible, so you never enter a zero in the grade book.

6:41 That was always fun to show students how their zero averaged into their overall grade, and how bad it hurt it. Make sure you turn the homework in. Do more than what's expected. You know how many students I had that did more than what expected? Oh, probably two or three. Yeah, probably two or three in every class after we spent a day going over these rules. And guess what grades they got? A's. A's. They always had A's because they did more than what was expected, not the requirement. And it doesn't take much to do more than what's expected.

7:25 An extra problem or two? Right. Well, you know, I didn't ask that. It was about actually doing some extra work that would benefit them. So then use your downtime during the school day to finish your assignments so you don't have to spend as much time in the evening. And always, number ten, this is maybe the most important one, always remind yourself, you can do anything you wish to do if you're willing to do what is necessary to achieve it. So there's the ten rules. If you do each one, your grades will be very, very good.

8:02 I think they'll be A. If you don't... There was a certain time in my life when if I heard those rules, I would think, if I could even think this deeply, I would think... Completely out of the question, man. Were you too cool for school? Absolutely. Although I was in school. Apparently. I was in school and I was too cool to be in school, but I was there. I'm glad you were there. Were you there every day? Oh, yeah. Did you have your homework? Yeah, back in my day I didn't realize that I could slack or quit or anything.

8:38 Yeah, that wasn't even... brought up that wasn't I wasn't even aware of anything regarding you I couldn't skip never skipped there every day oh yeah you know not in my family was that expected from you sure yeah exactly that's the difference so let's just talk about grade school a little bit grade school prepares you for high school and junior high High school can already be part of your college or career preparation if you go there with the right attitude. Research what you want to do in the future and what that's going to require and start taking the courses and take advantage of the opportunities that get you there where they're available.

9:20 Dual credit, dual enrollment, advanced placement, career and technical education courses can let students begin substantial post -secondary work before They're ever out of high school. If you're there for the right reasons, you can basically walk away with a college education by the time you leave. Now, you sound like a PSA. Thank you. That's what I mean to be here in the back to school episode. Thank you so much. Here's another very important rule. Necessary does not mean fun. What? It doesn't mean fun.

9:57 That's my stick. Rule 10 includes the word necessary. Some necessary work will be difficult. It will be boring according to you. It will be frustrating or not immediately relevant. Not at this stage. You won't see what it's for. That is not permission to check out. Growth often... The bad thing is for most people... This comes at a time of their life when they're not able to have the foresight and to exercise the discipline necessary to get through it successfully as you did sir. Error go. Doc G's 10 rules for success.

10:37 Growth often begins... Hell with that! Barney all day, do something all night, whatever Kiss says. Growth often begins where comfort ends. In fact, that is where it begins. And the point is no matter what... students you are the person in control of your future not your parents not your teachers not the school they can help or they can hinder but you yourself has to take charge of the situation so discussants who hated back -to -school commercials if you could see them Which one of these rules do you think matters most?

11:20 What would you tell a 13 -year -old who has never seriously considered what he or she might be capable of? Any extra rules you'd like to put into effect or congratulate Doc G on his 10 rules for success in anything? I want to congratulate you, Doc G, on your 10 rules and get out and party. I've got some guys out front waiting for me. Be out there in a minute, guys. Listen to some stupid ass rules in here from some dumb ass. Did you have Doc G's class? It sucked. There was a little of that for certain.

12:08 But this is what it takes. And it doesn't take much more than that, just the right mindset. Most of these things, if students get in the habit over three weeks of doing these things, then they become an actual ingrained habit. That's what it takes, but holy smoke. That's what it takes, you're right. But to muster the discipline to take what it takes? Only a very few. The glut are the ones with the room -temp IQs and they're out maybe protesting on Wall Street. That's where most of them end up. They can't handle these 10 rules.

12:45 What we're trying to prevent is exactly that.

Parents: Never Set the Ceiling

12:48 You're listening to Doc G in the discussions. When we come back, students need to take control but parents have a different job. Never teach them where to stop. A brief interruption, nothing more. While we're away, stop by .gandthediscussance .com. Choose your favorite discussant, leave a question, make a comment, register a complaint, or even pay us the occasional compliment. We can handle all of it. We'll be right back. Some of our best ideas come from the people listening. If you have a question, a comment, a show idea, or maybe someone you'd like us to interview, we'd love to hear from you.

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17:29 The Doctor is in. Yeah, I've got a comment for that goofy, dorky Doc G who thinks I'm supposed to... to take care of all these rules and become a better student. Don't you blow it out your backside. Well, here come my death threats. Now we'll get to parents. So here comes the boy, what are you doing, telling me how to raise my kids segment. Okay, so here's the myth. The big myth. Parents are programmed to obsess over the right school, in quotes. But the same school produces excellent students and poor students alike.

18:20 The better question is, what is your child doing with the opportunity? A serious student who takes the most challenging appropriate curriculum can find strong teachers, strong peers, and great experiences in almost any school. I'm going to say any school if you're there for the right reasons. And parents, so, you know, don't look for the right school. Send your kids to school to work and do the best job they can and your outcomes will be high no matter what school you're in. Never let community cliches family history or somebody else's expectations become the expectations for your child.

19:02 High expectations are extremely important. They do not mean choosing the child's destination. They mean refusing to establish an artificial ceiling before the child, him or herself, discovers what that is. Here's my biggest pet peeve. Parents no longer tell children they can do anything they want. I, a lot of times in the classroom, would be the first person they'd ever heard that from and you could tell because it excited them. Parents don't say this enough anymore. You can do this. Sometimes a teacher may be the first adult who seriously tells a student that difficult things are possible.

19:46 It's more often not either anymore. Children need adults who expand possibility who not adults who explain why achievement probably isn't for them. You know, there's can't yeah, there's a lot of can't in education, which drives me up the. They can't unless we. Yeah, they can unless we. That's the policy, right? Unless we provide this particular policy and this money in this particular situation, they can't guess who hears that first. Students, right? Parents hear that and that becomes can't and can't gets inculcated and that is a very dangerous thing.

20:27 That is not what happens in the best. cultures who do the best on standardized tests. We'll talk about that in a little while. So also don't hand down your limitations. Don't say this. I've had to tell parents this. I wasn't good at math either. Don't tell your student that. That might sound comforting to a child. It can sound like permission not to be good at a subject matter themselves. Your shortcomings do not need to become your child's inheritance. Be very, very careful of that. Here's a teacher rule.

21:07 Support teachers in front of your children. I've had to counsel parents on this too. If you tell your young man or young lady that their teacher's just worthless and dumb, guess what they're going to think of their teacher. Even if you disagree wholeheartedly, do it privately. Teachers can be wrong and parents should challenge real problems, but publicly undermining the teacher gives the child an easy escape from responsibility. You should challenge real problems, but publicly undermining the teacher is not a good idea in front of you.

21:45 It's like when parents fight, and, you know, mom says dad's a heel, and dad says mom's a witch, which, you know. Thank you. It undermines each other and nothing good comes from it. So and let's here's another thing. Here's another thing from Doc G. Here's another thing. Adults are adults. You can listen to children, but you don't make a child's present judgment the standard for what the child needs. Are you saying kids don't make the rules? That's sort of what I'm saying. This isn't fun. I don't like it.

22:30 I don't see why I need it or not. Adult educational judgments, but they often become those. I've seen it firsthand, and I've had to admonish folks for letting that become the guiding judgment, the child's judgment. So after all that discussance, I would think that you'd feel so much better about this program. Do parents sometimes lower expectations to protect children from disappointment? Do you think that's true? Or are lower expectations just what we're all used to now? Do parents have expectations from their kids anymore?

23:08 That's what I'm asking you. That's what I'm asking you. I know I was completely raised with expectations. I knew what was expected of me and I didn't question it. That's that's what I did. But I don't know that that happens anymore. They expect the teachers to do the stuff, but I don't know that parents expect their kids to do. as much as what, when I grew up, anyway. What do you think the norm is out there these days? As far as parents' expectations? Well, I tell my kids all the time, they'll be talking about their kids, and I'm like, well, you have to expect them to do these.

23:57 If you expect them to do this, whatever it is, they will, but you have to expect it. So if you don't expect anything, you're going to get nothing. Nothing is what you will get for certain teachers and parents alike. If you have the soft bigotry, made famous by President Kennedy, of low expectations, and that is rampant. Yeah, I think so. And it's enunciated in just what we talked about earlier. They can't unless we build a brand new school. soft bigotry of low expectations. They can't unless we institute this particular program.

24:38 The kids hear this dummies and they internalize these things and they're not told they can do whatever they want to do despite the circumstances which is very much not the situation in other countries. I know Tom has some strong feelings about fun. He has some strong feelings about Doc G's rules. Let's go to the professor and I'll just go ahead and leave the building right now. When I was a really little boy and my mama sent me off to school, she told me that I was fairly well spoken, good grammar and all that.

25:21 Of course I was in a household of... people that were conscientious and they cared, and she was an English teacher. And she said after I'd been in school for a few months, my grammar just went to hell. Yeah, just really bad. And she started picking up things in it that were incorrect and telling me, that's not right, don't say that, say this, whatever, blah, blah, blah. So right off the bat, it was my environment in school was affecting me, bringing me down a little bit. I kept going, of course, all the way through, but...

25:52 It seems like, well, of course, we're not talking about beyond 12th grade right now, beyond senior high school. Rush Limbaugh, you know, as he said, he didn't go to college, so therefore he could think clearly and express himself well. And it seemed like it wasn't exactly, it seemed like it was not that through K through 12, as you say. It seemed like, as I said earlier, I... I did not know, it wasn't even in my mind, that I could quit. And as far as skipping school, that was so strictly verboten that it wouldn't even consider it.

26:33 It sounded frightening to skip, although there were guys I knew that did skip casually, no big deal, but not I. So it seemed like the experience in school was not an enjoyable one, except for the social side benefits. meeting my girlfriend, that kind of stuff. That was good. But going to classes, I had an art teacher that would stand by the door as we walked in, and she would force us to say, excuse me. And if we didn't, we'd be admonished and embarrassed in front of the class. So she would stand in front of her door.

27:04 As I walked past her, enter her classroom, I'd say, excuse me. And so crazy stuff like that. I started a campaign once in elementary school. Ray L. Potts for president. I made up a character called him Ray L. Potts. I made a whole bunch of little rectangular buttons with safety pins in the back and passed them out to all the students so half the students were wearing Ray L. Potts for president buttons and finally one day anyone wearing a Ray L. Potts button was ushered into the hallway outside the classroom and here came the principal to address all of us wanting to know who is Ray L. Potts?

27:40 What is this whole thing about? So we had to relinquish our rail pots, buttons, and stop campaigning for him. How did your mom feel about that? Oh, she just thought, she thought it was harmless but silly. Right, and that's how I would have... Let's just go ahead how I would have handled as a principal exactly basically the same way only I would have been laughing the entire time but I couldn't have been seen to laugh you know I would have I would have had to act like that was the worst thing that's ever happened in the history of school and Ray L Potts is no place for in this learning environment and you need to relinquish those tickets and then go in the office and just laugh about it because that's good fun huh We had a recess there.

28:28 We'd go out for, I don't know how long it was, 20 minutes maybe. But anyway, winter time, I had a sock hat and the clothes call, a clothes haul, whatever you call that, kind of a long closet thing that was in this old school where you put your coat. Anyway, I reached in for my coat and sock hat and there was a note in my sock hat. So I took it out and it said, I like you. I thought, whoa. I've got some female student admiring me at a distance and of course I had mixed emotions at that age. I was, I don't know what that was, third or fourth grade or something, but anyway I decided to stay in and not go on recess and so I went through the trash searching for a piece of notebook paper that my note was obviously torn from the corner and I did find it after a few minutes in the trash and so then I learned the identity of the girl because her name was on the paper and wow that is getting it done my man that is detective work i like that but anyway that was uh that was my let's see what else did i do in elementary school oh there is no i know we had we were having fire drills and they would have the boys on the on the second floor we'd walk outside and onto the fire escape and once our weight was on it the fire escape would lower kind of a ramp of stairs if it go down to the playground.

29:51 We could all walk down then. And they had the boys go out and do that. And so I made all the boys aware that since we were coming down first, we could go under the fire escape and we would be able to look up all the girls' dresses and skirts. And so once the teacher found out about this and administration, of course, they had to change the whole policy to where the girls had to go out and... and lowered the fire escape ramp first. So that was another fond memory from elementary school. Exactly the kind of thing I wanted to highlight here in the back to school program.

30:25 We'll be back after these

Teachers: Teach, Don’t Recruit

30:27 messages. In the meantime, we might talk to the professor a little bit about what we're actually trying to accomplish here. You're listening to Doc G and the Discussance on sabbatical. The discussion continues in just a moment. While we take a break, go to docgandthediscussants .com. Meet the Discussants, catch another episode, support the show, visit the shop, or tell your favorite cast member exactly what's on your mind. Doc G and the Discussants, on sabbatical, back after this. Looking for the official Doc G and the Discussants merchandise, you'll find it on our website, dgnd .com.

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33:11 Your stuff needs a home, too. This message is for Shana, my mom who just finished her high school diploma. I wanted to say I'm so proud of you for finishing school. You told me it's never too late to achieve your dreams. I hope to make you as proud as you have made me. When you graduate, they graduate. Finish your high school diploma for you and for them. Visit finishyourdiploma .org to find free and supportive adult education centers near you. Brought to you by the Dollar General Literacy Foundation and the Ad Council.

34:23 Welcome back to the back to school episode where the professor was just describing Early yeah early precedence in the sexual harassment fire drills. We were talking about fire drills. Yeah, we were talking about fire I thought it was I misunderstood How could I have done together? Yeah, I'm trying to but I was shocked by you know, the routine of the fire drill being you know undermined by a Early, you know how little boys are they're quasi prurient a quasi I think they're totally pure. Let's see.

35:04 So now let's go to teachers, another place where the death threats should come in hot and heavy. Teachers don't recruit. And that's why some teachers are there. That's the only reason they're there. Your politics. Yeah, they don't belong in the classroom. Teach. Controversial subjects, when they belong in the course, present evidence and competing arguments, but using classroom authority to preach your politics is ethically wrong. I'm going to say that again. Using classroom authority to preach your politics is ethically wrong.

35:42 Ethically wrong. Wrong. You're wrong. Students should never have to discover the teacher's politics to know what answer earns an A. And just like parents, I want you to expect more, especially when it's hard. Challenges are a reason to provide opportunity instruction. Do not decide what a student is capable of, and meets this phrase that I hear all the time, meeting students where they are, is only useful if that means you know where they are, you teach them what they need to know to advance, and then you actually move them forward.

36:22 We don't just meet them where they are and have a little party. Meeting where they are and moving them forward is what it's about. So that cannot, it cannot mean just leaving them where you found them. The other day I was talking about looking at an issue of NEA Today, National Education Association Today magazine, and I looked through those and the whole damn thing is slanted left. And it's not blatant. You can bring a sentence out. and read it and say well where do you get left out of that and and you won't but there's just a subtle left -leaning inclination everywhere throughout that magazine nea today national education so there it is i don't know it's going to be time consuming to get it turned around i think it's not going to happen quickly right i also suggest this, read it again and see how many times you see can't in there.

37:16 It'll be can't, that'll be subtle too, but there's a whole lot of can't and there's very little we need to roll our sleeves, there's no, I'm not going to say very little, there is no we need to roll our sleeves up and get to work here. That you're not going to find. The magazine was pushing Biden, I remember that, they had a grandpa picture of him on the cover smiling like he needs to be our president, not Trump. and he became our president and we've seen the result of that and I don't think that what are they the democratic shitheads of America I don't think they're going to admit the results of it but we've certainly seen the results with the open borders and get rid of the police and get rid of prisons and get rid of this and get rid of that and change this and that to where the whole thing is just as you said third world So I don't think much of NEA Today magazine.

38:07 I think they're just a propaganda rag, I'm sorry to say. Maybe. I mean, they certainly lean left, and I think it's more than lean left. All you have to do is listen to their spokesman and you'll find out what they believe. Good teachers should make learning engaging. It's not just fun and it's not just relevant. Those are not requirements. Engaging lessons when you can and explain purpose when useful. But school is not obligated to entertain. There might be a fine line between, there's a fine line between fun and engagement.

38:47 I've felt engaged on things before and I would ask myself, well, is this fun? How am I think? Well, it's... It's pleasant. It's engagement. The engagement is pleasant. Would I define it as fun? I'm not sure. I guess we really would have to define the word fun, I guess. And fun seems to connote a certain amount of superficiality and frivolousness and lack of depth. To me, it connotes that anyway. And that's the problem is lack of depth and lack of expectation. I think there's been a few generations of teachers now that have been I was sort of trained to believe if everybody in the classroom isn't super happy that I'm not getting the job done.

39:31 This is not the case. Sometimes it's hard. A few years back, I was hearing in the media a few years back that we need to make learning fun. We need to make learning fun. And even I, in my vast ignorance, when I heard that years ago, I thought, oh boy. Gotta make learning fun. Well, there goes learning. That is largely what's happened. Passing students along just to say, let me get to that in a second. Let me finish this thought. Adults create a dangerous excuse when boredom, difficulty, or lack of immediate interest becomes permission not to learn.

40:09 And what I'm talking about there is relevance. I heard for years in legislative circles about how relevance was important. It is important in a particular situation, but sometimes things are just hard and we need to expect that hard things will be done whether a student sees the relevance or not. And if we give them this idea that everything must be fun and everything must be relevant, then what would they do with that? As very smart young people, they use it. Many times they say, this isn't fun and I don't see what's in it for me.

40:53 And the first thing that the adults around them do is let that child's assessment of the situation govern. So the kid ends up in the street in a few years with a pro -communist sign. Gimme, gimme, gimme. I can't handle this on my own. I just need the government to take care of me. I don't feel confident. My schooling was horrible. We can't grade. We don't want to make somebody. Let's give them the participation trophy. That's what they do anymore, I think.

41:33 apply a lot of this pressure because they say my student is an A student and they've never been given any less than an A before so then those of us that would assess them honestly we're up against it so I'm asking teachers to resist the pressure to abandon a fixed legitimate standard. You can give help. You can re -treat. You can make expectations clear, but if... We went through a big round of that. The ACT was racist towards or unfair towards certain groups. So was the SAT. And now we have students that are in college who cannot do fractions because we had no idea how they were going to come into the system.

42:20 But there's another thing about that. there are a lack of students of college age and so they're looking for ways to admit them so it's a double -edged sword but yes you know that sort of was a result of the Black Lives Matter movement too where standardized tests were just sort of thrown out the window for a few years and they're just now starting to make a comeback but my last thing I want to say on this is passing students who have not met the standard lowers the bar for the next course and eventually for everyone.

42:54 Now, I want teachers to be prepared every day. Know your subject. Know what you're going to teach. Teach hard for the entire class. A wasted class period is time students never get back. The teacher can... I still find it funny and entertaining that college students cannot speak properly and can't do simple math. Now that's what I call entertainment. There is no pressure. for that to happen. The pressure is for us to perform on standardized tests. I don't need to know anything. Computer's going to do it all for me.

43:26 Well, that's a prediction I want to make right here, right now, and I want to go on record. I think the next five years will be some of the worst test scores we've ever seen because they're all going to do their homework with chat GPT. I want my words marked here because that is going to happen. They are not going to do their own homework anymore at all. Everything's going to have to be done in class time, and some hard things cannot just be done in class time. You have to sit and wrestle with things to actually learn them.

43:58 But I think we're going to start to see perfect problems come back in. But they will be a little less than perfect. I'm smart enough to make some mistakes here and there. But their test scores are going to be horribly bad. I don't have any faith in today's teachers. They're crappy until proven otherwise. I mean, the only way I could have faith in a teacher is if I would be allowed to audit his or her class, sit there maybe for one period for five days and just in the back and just see what's presented.

44:31 I would almost have to go through that. Otherwise, my default is you're a crappy teacher, but that's just me. It's not so much they're crappy. their priorities and their worldviews sort of make it impossible to be a good teacher in some ways. That's defined as crappy. Well, I mean, they know the craft. They know the craft. Their attitude is wrong about it. They're always looking for why a student can't instead of why a student can. That's true. Marxist ramifications too, and there have been a plethora of Marxism plugged into...

45:19 I did like Karl Marx's mustache. I thought his beard was too bushy on the sides, but he had a nice stache. Looking pretty good. I think he'd look good on a Harley. Oh, that's right. He would. Yeah, he'd be perfect on a Harley. Yeah. Hell's Angel colors. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's about it for teachers. I think that's enough for them to really be mad at old Doc G, which is just fine and meant what I said. I stand by what I said. They need to straighten up their act. The teachers need to straighten up their act.

45:52 Stop this political crap. Teach your topic. Teach your subject. Stop the bullshit, okay? It's just kind of that simple.

Schools Don’t Learn—Students Do

46:01 Well, we're headed into a break and when we come back we'll talk about whether we're trying to fix the right thing. God, we do a lot of fixing. We haven't fixed anything yet. You're listening to Doc G and the Discussance. We'll give the Discussents a moment to regroup. In the meantime, visit docgandthediscussents .com. Episodes, the shop, ways to support the show, and of course, Doc's Bright Box. Do make proper use of it. Doc G and the Discussents on sabbatical. We'll be right back. Every successful show has great sponsors.

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49:44 Well, one final segment left in the back to school program. I kind of feel good about myself for deciding we needed to do this. I don't know why. Thanks. That made it all worthwhile, Russ, right there. That was it. So education policy, PhD in policy analysis and educational leadership here. So just to... laid out there constantly talks about successful schools, failing schools, school improvement, and school transformation. And boy, are they well -versed in talking that line. But schools don't learn.

50:38 They don't learn anything. Individual students do. Students can succeed or fail in the same building with the same teachers and the same opportunities. We used to think differently about that in America. Schooling once placed responsibility much more directly on the student. The teacher taught, the student worked, the student was evaluated, and the student owned the result. Failure was not automatically treated as proof that the school had failed. Now, I want to go turn to the international context for just a little while because I found that Some of the most interesting work I did in a PhD program work in Singapore, South Korea, China and Japan, which consistently, especially Singapore and the Koreas and Japan, China, all four countries rank very high in student achievement.

51:38 Singapore usually first place for years and years. They still retain more of the adult -led, high -expectation model, serious academic work persistence, and they expect that students will work through difficultly and adult authority and student responsibility are treated as normal, rather than defects to be engineered away, as we have for the last 40 or 50 years in this country. Well, not Singapore. Certainly not South Korea. Basically, what we're talking about there is Confucian cultures. They don't believe in talent.

52:24 They believe in hard work. And from the family's point of view, if a student goes to school and doesn't perform, that's shame for the family. Those things in conjunction with my family when I was in school. Well, that's what I'm getting at is things have changed where for some reason, if I go to school and I don't produce, it's somebody else's fault. That sounds sort of familiar with some of the things we've talked about not very long ago.

53:00 So I encourage. you, if you're listening for this show, for actual advice and you're listening, read Confessions of a Tiger Mom. You'll like that book. Most of what I'm saying here is in that book and it was written by a Korean mother and how she raised her kids. I have a stepdaughter right now raised just like this. started looking at the things she wanted to do to become what she wanted to be in the future, took the hardest courses, there were no excuses, even took them from teachers we didn't particularly like, but you're always gonna run into people that you don't like in the world, and that's a lesson too.

53:37 She's now a veterinarian, that's not an easy thing to accomplish, there's not all that many slots out there to have that happen, and very proud of her accomplishments. The simple model, prepared teachers who teach hard every day, and students who come ready to work, plus parents who maintain high expectations, those things require remarkably little money, if any money at all, and very few new programs to employ new school administrators to administrate those programs. Simple isn't easy. Attendance, however, is.

54:17 It's very simple. Preparation. is easy. It's very simple if you avail yourself of it. Doing every assignment, also simple. Very simple rule. Honest grading is simple, and the high expectations are simple. None of it is easy to sustain every day, but once it becomes a habit, it is, and none of it costs one nickel. So one final piece of advice for a student, and then you can all jump on top of me and say, geez doc, you are really... Really a nerd. One finally piece of advice, one for a parent and one for a teacher, then if these three groups can't get together on these basic rules, we're lost because there's nothing here that's hard to do, nothing that costs more money.

55:10 All we're asking is that everybody be there for the right reasons instead of this socialization idea that took it over so many years ago. It's not always fun, it's not always easy, but it is extremely important to the student. You can make your life anything you want it to be if you just want it hard enough, bad enough, and you're willing to put the work in. That's how things are done. Okay, so chime in. Tell me where it's wrong. I think that the families you're describing there, the ideal situation, so to speak, are so few.

55:50 There are some. They're so few and far between that I'm afraid the kids of the other families are going to go out and vote in the communists. I think they are. I think they are. I think they've been taught and socialized to believe. that someone else controls all their opportunities, somebody else controls all their money, that it's a zero sum game, and it's so much easier to blame somebody else for your shortcomings. It's so much easier to decide that you just can't achieve because the man won't let you.

56:25 There you go. Extremely easy to be of that political persuasion. It's a little harder to be on the other side, but the rewards are much greater. Sarah? Let's hear from you. How did you approach this as you were raising your kids? Expectations. I expected it. And they knew that. And I said it a while ago. I think that's what's missing in most of these things now, I will also say. they expect their child to participate in sports and do well in sports and so sometimes that leaves the actual grades or school portion of it on the side.

57:13 Yeah, that's a whole nother conversation. I know it is, but it happens a lot. It happens far too often. It seems like I can drive by about any high school now and I will see a palatial. football field I'll see a field house not a gym a field house now and we're talking about maybe 1 % of these students that move on to college or higher education through through athletics when if they would study there's all sorts of opportunities for them but they all approach it through the lens of athleticism which is a much shallower pool in order to get where you want to go.

57:58 Nothing wrong with that. The emphasis, it's over emphasized and it's even over emphasized in the value shown on the out, which is culture. I can tell what the culture of a place is just by looking at the outside of a building. And when I see that the football field is just immaculate with parking lots for miles and a brand new scoreboard. Right next to it sits the basketball pavilion and we're all complaining that there's no money for the things we need. It's a little hard to swallow. And as a superintendent, I watched it happen.

58:37 I watched. My board want things that the neighboring district had down the street, whether we needed them or not. It happened time and time again. Sports seems to be a deity of some sort. It's a deity. Seems like most of America worships at the throne, the idol of sports. And it infiltrates education. in some ways that I think are dangerous. Well, you know, the back to school episode was so much more fun than I ever imagined it could be. I was basically told by every discussant that, man, are you out of touch?

59:21 And man, you know, can we find something more fun to talk about besides back to school? No, we can't. That was fun. I understand. And it did sound out of touch, didn't it? Maybe that's why we talk about that not all too much. But it was, you know, timely. School's going to be back in session. We all agreed that we hated those commercials. And I've told you exactly how to succeed. All you have to do is follow the rules. For Sarah and the professor, this is Doc G. Thanks for spending your time with us.

59:59 And don't forget to write us. But there is plenty more waiting for you. Visit Doc G and thediscussance .com. Catch the latest episodes. Meet the gang. Suggest a future subject. Leave a comment. And if something has truly managed to get under your skin, put it where it belongs. DocScribeBox. You can also support the show, explore sponsorship opportunities, and visit the shop. DocG and the discussants .com. Until next time, the doctor is out.